سبشل اوردر
"Okay yala, sab3ita3ash elkol" announced Sagir, under the basket pole bouncing the basketball on the concrete ground over to Fahad. Fahad grabbed the ball, and looked at the basket, "shlon ya3ni game point al7een?" asked Fahad.
Sagir stood in place, looked over his shoulder to the benches next to the grill where two more of their friends were sitting, "yoba ta3alaw shoofaw il athwal hatha sa7ibkom, ma y3arf ye3id," he turned to face Fahad "la, o sharhety ana, il3ab bro7ek baro7 aakel".
Fahad laughed and ignored Sagir's departure, he continued to attempt at the basket until he was called 'gabel la Khalod yekhalis ely ako wely mako'.
Fahad arrived at the grill just as 7amad was asking, "ya3ni ent al7een Khalod eb tagne3ny enek ment makheth el bnaya, mo lenek etkalemha o shab3aan menha, laken lenha mo met7ajba?" Khalid nodded, reaching for a napkin. "Sh'hal maskhara ely ent 3ayesh feha, shako?"
Khalid ignored, or was probably too stupid to do two things at the same time. You know, talk and eat. Maybe that's what his mom taught him though. Sagir jumped in, "o shdakhal el e7jaab b mas'alat el zawaaj? Siteen alf om i3yaal o rabbat bait mo met7ajba, ya3ni enta raayek nafs wayhek, malah da3i bas tefelsif o isteshraaf".
Khalid shrugged.
An irritated 7amad spoke, "enta gasdik ena mako san3a ela o lazim tekon met7ajba? Ma chennek enta ely em7awely siteen wa7da kelhom mit7ajbaat o daaraw 3aly ako wely mako mn el rabi3". Fahad helped himself to a burger and bun, "yoba ekhthoha gaa3ida, la e7jab, la sefoor, la shahada, la 3aayla, la ba6eekh .. wala shay mn hal ashya yedellek 3ala etha el bent san3a wela la. Ma ra7 tadry ela 3ogob ma etezawaj, gisma o niseeb, 7ata bel khe6ba maybayen. Bas Khalood saaj, el e7jab farth mn rab il 3alimeen, enta ma lek sheghel b shely yesaweeh elwalad. 3alaik bel farth, okay yekharbe6 o 7ata lo la yesoom wala yesali, el slaat bettim farth wel seyaam farth wel e7jab farth. Hatha ely ana shayfa".
Sagir raised the Cola bottle to 7amad who had his empty glass infront of him, 7amad waved in denial and said "ent shrayek? Khalood shareef roma yegolek il sana3 bel 7jaab".
Khalid intervened "ana ma gilt, enta ely ifterratht. Kel ely geltlek eyah ena ana mara7 akheth wa7da sifoor, wely akalemha sifoor, shrayek tefta7ly ma7thar etzawejni eyaha gaseb 7alaya wayhek?"
Sagir poured into his glass, "malah sheghel. Il 7jaab bel nehaya ma howa ela kherja tega6y el sha3ar. Ma tadry enta 3an gana3a il bent labsita, magssooba el bnaya, fal3eenha eb hal bo6el o gayleenlaha gasban 3alaich talbiseena, ma tadry. Fa Khalod kel teben o haat el kachab ely yamek".
Khalid passed over the ketchup, he wiped his hands with the napkin saying "ya jema3a il e7jab farth bel deen wela la? Ma dam ena farth, akeed agal ma ilwa7ed yetmanah b morta ena tekon 3arfa ferooth'ha. Tadry enha wa7da 7a6at e3tebar 7ag deenha fi ta6beeg a7kaamah 3al agal."
"Inta tekfa bas ha, 6a meno ga3ed yet7acha bel deen. Wallah 6arr6ara." said Fahad. 7amad shrugged, "Inta lama tegoly ena el e7jab farth, hathy gana3tik. Int bel awal tegdar tes'al ay wa7da 3an raayha, teshouf wejhat natharrha. Etha ehya emsadga ena farth wela shayfa shay thany. Mo inta ely ta7kom 3alaiha. Yemken laha asbaab-ha, o yemken ma laha asbaab, 6ag eb raas'ha mate7ajab. Int sh3alaik. Il zibda enek matyeeny eb salamtek, abok labo salamtek, wetgoly la mako wa7da sifoor san3a".
Fahad nodded, "Saaj, ana mani shayef 3elagat el e7jaab bel sana3. Kilish ma min raabi6. Laken 7maid ma yiseer tegouly ena ehya shayfeta mo farth. Itha 3an ganaa3a ehya ma wid-ha, 3alaiha bel3afya o 3ala 3ainy o raasi shay raje3 laha. Laken fi farg bain 7oreyat'ha, o enha tet3ada 3ala ely ana me3teged feeh wohwa ena el 7jaab farth".
Khalid sat next to Sagir, "7maid ana in ssi3t wela thi3t, gasban 3alay a3terif ena el salaat farth. Laken etha ma salait moleya, fa hatha yekon mn gel el sana3 ely feeny. I7na kelna 3alaina 7arakat gar3a, laken ma teshofna negolek laa il sseyaam mathalan mo farth o nafty 3ala kaifna."
Sagir jumped in, "Raja'an, lat3amim. Ana insaan seeda ma 3alay sowalef. O en kaan farth wela la, fi hatha el zeman ely enta 3ayesh feeh, el e7jaab maho gair kherja etga6y il sha3ar. Okay, akeed ya3ni el bent ely talbisa nafs ma howa el mafrooth a7san mn wa7da te6la3lek emfassakha o tabe tegolek hathy 7oreety o ana a3abir 3an nafsi eb hal shakel".
Khalid looked over at 7amad, "o yoba 7maid ana 3aarif ena ako met7ajbaat emwaleen o ray7een chafy moleya. Laken hatha ma ya3ni ena khalas, el e7jaab ohwa ely kharrabhom mathalan. La takhle6 el omour eb ba3ath'ha, ana agolek many makheth ely akalemha lenha mo met7ajba o ana gana3ty ena el 7jaab farth".
7amad was not impressed. He still maintained that "il bent, ay bent, akthar mn met7ajba wela la. Ya3ni ana aftekir ena el met7ajba ham nafs'ha betgolek etha enta 7asebni san3a BAS 7ag el e7jaab, 3ayal enta ensan sa67y o ma et3arf rasik mn keryasik. O ana agoulek, went tadry eb hal shay mn ely ma3aana bel dawam, ya ketherhom il banat ely sifoor bas kelna negol welne3im fehom".
The four not-so-eligible bachelors talked some more debating the issue.
-
*Special thanks to Erzulie
posted by Temetwir at
8:07 PM
58 Comments:
I second hattor. It is a must, yes, but wearing it does not mean you're good. Heck, some people wear 7jabat that look so offensive to the idea of 7jab.
And about wearing it 3an qana3a, I used to believe that I'd be a big fat hypocrite if I wear 7jab while at the same time listening to .. say, Kelly Clarkson in the car, snapping fingers and singing with her. Yes, people might say oh she's such a good girl, met7ajba oo san3a, but I'd be like, cheating God.
But then I realised that wallah la, shay a7san min wala shay, o since I believe it's a must, I should wear it and take things step by step.
Wejhat nathar ..
:-p
By
ScarlO, at 6.4.06
"...with 7ejab there chance ina el ebnaya ti6la3 zaina akthar min illee mo met7ajba..." by hattorihanzo
I disagree with that point, especially in these times.
By
Erzulie, at 7.4.06
Yay! No "F" words! :p
Seriously though, I prefer to marry a girl that is not "met7ajba". She can wear it after marriage if she wants (although she's supposed to anyway).
I know a couple of girls who had recently decided to wear it and I quite admire that, because I knew how respectibale they were and they have become even more respectable now, at least by my measures.
As for those who are already wearing it, I'm losing faith in this category. 7jab, shaila, neqab, "kherja?", ...etc.
The community has changed. Most of today's reasons to wear it, is to NOT comb the hair! (I blatantly assume)
Or to use it as a mask to hide her "behind-the-scene" acts. (No need to assume, you ALL know it's true).
Here's an advice, read and remember or forget, it's your choice :: When asking about a girl, ask about her relationship with her mom. If it's close ask about her mom.
Then, ask about her friends. Asking about her friends is even more important than asking about her mom. How to ask about the friends? Ask those who are in the surrounding.
This is the toughest stage in the whole marriage process. This should be accomplished after choosing a girl and deciding from premature qualities that she's suitable; Before proposing to the girl.
By
MBH, at 7.4.06
feras
i think u made the distinction pretty clear between what is a farth and il sana3, as totally unrelated
scarlo there's a number of "types" of 7jabat .. lel amana y3ni, fi ely ga6a le7jaab 3ala ras'ha o terfa3ly il chimm, shagolaha hathy ballah? mo fahma laish labseta belawal, khal talbisly "japanaih" (ya lahwy) bedon ele7jab o MA7AD bekalemha .. fi nemayen gashra o hatha ilwaagi3, u mention kelly clarkson, o yarait yat 3ala chethy.. ahwan mn samraat o ga3deen 3al ishara emnagaz o tesherbik waakher shay ta36eech bo
"yaraby ma nestanis?"
ilmohem, lazim inraa3y ena lama negol el "e7jab" nekhiss fil thekir el e7jab el "3adil" .. mo bas el 'physical scarf' or whatever its called in english .. la, el e7jab ely oho yafrith 3al bent
erzulie
point taken, and i can see why .. but dont want to assume anything: reasons plz? do tell
and btw, thnx again
By
Temetwir, at 7.4.06
hibba
anyone who wishes to discuss the e7jab as part of "this day and time" can come here and ill be more than happy to dedicate a whole post abt that
but i will say ena hatha kalam fathy .. i can understand (and respect as an opinion) anyone (male/female) who would argue abt the "farth" part, laken to talk abt it from a "day and age" is very very childish imho
now, u also brought up the issue of "better to wear than not wear at all" .. i can see what u mean, but then again i wouldnt expect anyone to talk abt met7ajbat using them as an example .. so in the end it really complicates things
i.e. i dont agree with that concept of "el 3awath wala il gi6ee3a" as we say in q8i
laialy
again, abt the "farth" part .. ma3teged fi meshkela ena netkalam fi hal mawthou3 .. mo 3aib, o bel3aks kelman yeshouf what the other has to say .. laken i repeat, etha el kalam mn manthor "this day and age", then im sorry, ma a7i6 mn mostawa el monagasha o akheth wa36y weya nas hatha fekerha
anyway, u raise a good question, the way i see it.. i wouldnt "ask" her to do it, i would just see what she has to say
MBH
FUCK PEACE .. ma7ad galek yeeb el6ary :p
anyway, u say ud rather marry a grl whos not met7ajba, but then say "shes supposed to" ..
how is that possible? y3ni enta eb hal ifteraath, sirt akhas mn Khalid in the story, taslib il "sana3" mn il met7ajbat wetzikha fil sifoor
the part abt the 'community changing' is something i highly disagree with .. mo salfat "most of today's reasons" .. fi banat yakhoy yet7ajiboon mn a3marhom 9 isneen
o fi naas tegolek "laish taghthy 3ala sa3adat il bent" .. mani fahem y3ni shyab 6ary el "sa3ada" bel e7jab? nafs ma ena madri shyab 6ary el sana3 7ag el 7jaab later on
bal akthar mn thalek, kalamek eb ena "bas 3ashan maymash6oon" ashoof ena shay jedan sa67y just like assuming il sana3 7ag el met7ajba o masloob mn el sifoor aw gairah ..
By
Temetwir, at 7.4.06
I read the post, one thing that bothered me though, why talk to a girl, have her as a girlfriend.. KNOWING that you won't marry her, and then say, oh yeah she's not mit7ajba so babye! Me no get it.
I am a non-mit7ajba. and I dont think this has anything to do with manners morals or anything of that sort. One thing I know for sure is that there are good and bad mit7ajbat and non-mit7ajbat. The thing is, some people can't go beyond the act of classifying people and categorising them according to appearance.
Love your blog
By
Anonymous, at 7.4.06
I like the point made regarding the mit7ajbat who act irresponsibily and with no amount of respect, that is is not because OF hijab that they're actinb that way. I know I'm sidestepping the issue here a bit, but if you'd notice, for example, that many 'liberal' blogs go out of their way to point out in their anecdotes about women whether the woman in question was mit7ajba or not, in the vein of "This MIT7AJBA girl totally cut me off while speeding on the highway yesterday." when it's irrelevent to the telling.
By
Anonymous, at 7.4.06
san3a
"One thing I know for sure is that there are good and bad mit7ajbat and non-mit7ajbat."
pretty much the gist ..
and the point w/ Khalid (and the others) is to show that sometimes, the ppl who do the classifying dont take the time to question theirselves knowing what they do is unacceptable "bas 3ady ete6awaf"
sapphire
i do agree,, a lot of times ppl (grls?) explain their-not-wearing-7jab by something some met7ajba did .. hatha y3ni akhas mn ely tegoly "not for this day and age" .. i wouldnt say "a lame excuse", i would just say theyre "lame"
arid o agol, ely 3endah raay ena mo farth, is entitled to it as long as he or she can back it up (im more than happy to discuss if anyone wants here in another post)
but yes, sapphire, duly noted and a point to be taken into consideration
whatever nonesense some met7ajbat pull, its not really BECAUSE of il 7jaab ..
by the same token, if i may add, whatever nonesense some sifoor pulls, is not really BECAUSE of the absence of il 7jaab
.. OR IS IT? <-- is the million dollar question
By
Temetwir, at 7.4.06
يا حلو الحجاب لي صار بقناعه و يا شينه لي صار غصب
I have been raised to love my hijab as many Muslim girls; hijab is a good protection.
It is a protection from
النفس الأمارة بالسوء; but only for those who wore it with compelling and with the will to please Allah not community or parents.
By
True Faith, at 7.4.06
7jab.. long story.. friction.. mashakil over wearin it.. ow not wearin it.. bs fe shay wa7ed.. itha el2eman balla qawey.. musta7eel elly talbis el7jab tsawey shay muzen.. cuz in principle.. she a good person with strong faith.. ay na3am fe bnat who strongly believe in god ow daynat ow yabon yet7ajebon.. bs 3ether`hom "ahaly ma ekhaoony"!! how lame!! i for one my parents were totally against me wearin it b4 i got married! bs i did it and they couldnt say a word.. cuz deep down they knew i did the right thing.. maybe they were ashamed of the fact that me their kid had more faith than they thought they planted in me..
its the person who is bad/good.. appearance has nothin to do with it..
i used to think that if i were to wear 7jab.. id be a strict uptight girl who keeps herself at home all the time.. oo loooyaa.. i used to think it was either black or white.. bs kint akhaf at7ajab cuz it was hard for me to be like that..
but once i wore it.. i slowly started to appreciate wuts really important and valuable in life.. if u wear 7jab 3an qana3a.. walla el3atheem it makes wonders :)
By
jiji, at 7.4.06
true faith
that makes a lot of sense, protection in the way of a constant reminder of il eeman ely 7ath-ha 3ala enha talbis el 7jaab
id also like to add, il shabab ye7tarmoon misafat'hom o ye7e6on alf 7saab 7ag ay wa7da met7ajba labsa el e7jab SA7 (just as well as lama tekon sifoor laken me7tashma, o abad, mako farg ghair ena sha3arha 6aali3)
a3teged ena e7na kelna fahmeen o wa3een ely 7awalaina o malah da3i en6awel b thekr amthella .. wely eb yankir hal shay elsara7a will have a very difficult time trying to prove otherwise, laken 7ayah allah
jiji
mashala alla ythabtich ..
sa7ee7 ena "appearance has nothing to do with it", laken la nensa ena el shakhs mn dakhel ham ye'athir 3ala how he or she presents him or herself outside
3al3omom allah ywafgich enshala :)
By
Temetwir, at 7.4.06
thanx :)
sa7.. y3ny elwa7ed la egol elnas kila 3abalhom ana mo zain cuz i wear ABCD.... wutever.. ur inside reflects on ur outside.. always! i know alot might disagree with me on that.. bs i know i believe in it :)
By
jiji, at 7.4.06
-Jiji
i used to think that if i were to wear 7jab.. id be a strict uptight girl who keeps herself at home all the time.. oo loooyaa.. i used to think it was either black or white.. bs kint akhaf at7ajab cuz it was hard for me to be like that..
I see where you're getting at. My American classmates keep saying that hijab must be a good thing, and if it were opressive and restricting, I'd have taken it off the moment I arrived in the US. I was flattered when they said that they respected me because I managed to be faithful to my tradition without seeming uptight or extreme.
-Tem:
Another thing I wanted to mention that I'm disgusted by some people's attitude towards marriage. It proves after all that it's true how "الطيبون للطيبات"
By
Anonymous, at 7.4.06
"whatever nonesense some met7ajbat pull, its not really BECAUSE of il 7jaab ..
by the same token, if i may add, whatever nonesense some sifoor pulls, is not really BECAUSE of the absence of il 7jaab"
Well said.
My aunt says that back in her day, things were different. She started to wear 7jab when she was 19, like me. She says things were different, people weren't as stupid as they were now, wel met7ajba bel class ayyam el metwase6 was like, something rare. People would go like, hatah el saf elli fee wa7da met7ajba. She was a bit hyperbolic I'm sure, but it sort of illustrates her point.
There was this lady that we knew, we saw her ever week at someoen's house, kel lailat yem3a kan ako graya there. She's like, late thirties, married and has kids. She never wore gold. And when the women there asked her why she doesnt, she said ma yejooz :-\
One day, police cars were surrounding their house at four in the morning. Turns out that her husband came back from the US (had a buisness trip) and saw a man in bed with his wife, choked him to death.
And she doesnt wear gold :-s etgool ma yejooz.
Want to get more shocked? The guy in bed with her, the one that died, is a sayyid and has two wives. It was on the newspaper, which is how i found out (saw the picture of their house)
It's sad how people can hide behind the mask of being religious and pure ..
By
ScarlO, at 7.4.06
People have brought forth many interesting points, as have your characters..
To the topic discussed: question of whether to marry a girl who isnt me7jaba is like asking me if i would marry a guy who i know, for a fact, doesnt pray 5 times a day. Both are wajb, and if not delivered both are m39ya..
However, that doesnt mean that any m7jba you see is a hardcore sinner. Some people dont have the proper guidance in life, arent/choose not to be informed,so if you marry a girl and help her become m7jaba (b 8na3a, not force) you would have done a great thing..
It pisses me off, to a level beyond belief, why this little unmentionable is "talking" to a girl he KNOWS he doesnt want to marry, and that there is no chance. Now, im not too fond of her either for talking to him, bas if he's discussing the idea of marriage and he wants to settle down, shouldnt he cut the 9ya3a shway...ufff :/
By
Faith, at 7.4.06
jiji
makes sense
o 3ad ooh enty yabeelich bo 3ali ssaayed kel hal ashkaal wel nemaayen 3ala ketir emfaselhom tafseel mo emkhaleehom
sapphire
3ala niyyat il fard, saajah .. sob7an allah
o just for reference takmelat elaya, besmelah elra7man elra7eem
الخبيثات للخبيثين والخبيثون للخبيثات والطيبات للطيبين والطيبون للطيبات أولئك مبرؤون مما يقولون لهم مغفرة ورزق كريم
ja3alna allah wa iyakom mn ahl el rezg elkareem.. ilahy ameen
3ady 6awfay sarly sina mo daash la masyed wala 7saineya
sacrlo
true abt "back in the day", duly noted.
bas ya3ni lama tigeeseenha .. wain kanaw yero7on ilbanat aslan? fa telgain il "wa3y" wela, madri ely ho, eyee lama ydeshon iljam3a, elma3had, yesafron.. wa haakatha fa telgain 3ala 17, 19
o chenich ga3da t7acheen 3an salfat ila7medi, mata7therny al7en bs ma3teged kanat kwaiteya o jahanam wa be's el masseer
b3dain 3ala 6ary mask religious o pure, laish tero7een b3eed?
kany jedamich akbar kalakchi, 3ayaar o looty bel sharg el awsa6 bas faale7 7ag el tejumbiz wel temaile7
faith
again, like hattori u draw a fair and exact distinction between el farth and how its unrelated specifically in this case with ilsana3
b3dain ya7lailech, laish ya3ni enty 7aa6a eb balich nisba mo3ayana mn ely yekalmoon actually considering marriage? khair inshala
khaleeni saket ana waaaaayed a7san
By
Temetwir, at 7.4.06
Temmie,
Yeah, that's the one.
She was lebanese, hubby's Kuwaiti. She has five (madri six?) daughters. I've seen the oldest two a couple of times, early twenties, youngest's like seven. It's just sad that she didn't think of the future of these girls before doing what she did. One's divorced now, the rest will probably stay unmarried. Allah yaster 3alaihom ..
Why am I talking about her :-\
oo ba3dain you're not that much of a looty (hope that doesn't offend you)
Okay, perhaps you are
(la tmed eedik ba3ad)
By
ScarlO, at 8.4.06
NOOO!
Ya man! ana mo qa9di enna el sifoor a7san! Bas eshtabeeni agoolik? shoof...
To take a girl "sifoor" and then when she puts it on, I'll KNOW she's doing it because she's convinced, not forced.
Whereas for the case when a girl has already chose to wear it, I can't be sure of the reasons why she decided to put it.
It may sound like I'm saying that I trust el "sifoor" more, and that is right!!!
That in itself doesn't mean that any is better than the other. It's just my own personal preference and my view of this community.
Do not compare me to Khalid! It's an insult! Guys like him always make me laugh; To play around for years and HE is ready, he wants a decent girl! Guys like that don't deserve a decent girl!!!
Someone has already commented with a verse from the holy Quran: "Al 6ayoboon lel 6ayyebat" ... "al khabethoon lel khabeethat".
By
MBH, at 8.4.06
well written.... i may repeat some of the things mentioned by some bloggers..... i do agree that 7ejab is a farth thats what i have been taught although ive heard that its not although it is preferable if she wears 7ejab from my point of view ..... but i dont agree with the idea that 7ejab determines whether she is a good or a bad person..... yama fe banat mt7ajbat laken Allah yaster 3laihum... and on the other side we see banat sfoor mashalla 3laihum.... personally i believe that wearing the 7ejab should come after ilbint being convinced about the idea instead of being forced :)
By
متفرغ, at 8.4.06
i visited the blog :) bs fe post mo3ayan? wala the whole theme?
By
jiji, at 8.4.06
scarlo
manee maad eedy
mbh
the whole thing abt "forced" or "convinced" chena imssakhat
chenkom tegolonly "ha? la, elwa7id? ee el wa7id ma lazim yessaly lain yekon megteni3.. y3ni abad, lat3awwda mn wohwa isgheer, latziffa etha kan yel3ab 7azat salaat .. khala ebro7a lain yekbar.. etha egtana3 enshala yseer khair"
point being: lama negool ena farth .. ma feha ro7 7abebi egteni3 6ayyib kha6rek o ba3dain ta3al ya mama saww ely 3alaik .. not at all
however, if we say its NOT a farth .. then this is a respected opinion (as far as im concerned) if and only if it can be backed up with something other than the "mayesla7 for this day and age" BS
o a7sant, it was sapphire ely ithkarrat jez' mn el aaya o kamalt'ha fog
metfarigh
teslam yal7abeeb
bas fi shaghla ana mani fahemha, when u guys say "convinced instead of being forced" .. what do u mean?
ohwa ya shabab ely ana a3arfa, mn belough el bint, tet7ajab .. y3ni 3omorha ma yekon tejazaw el 12 3ala ab3ad madda .. fa il bent tekbar 3ala hal shay
nafs ma il isbay yebda yessali mn wohwa 12-14
y3ni ya shabab, mo ma3gola e7na ga3deen negool ena el isbay ely 3omra 13 sina, mestaw3ib rahbat il salaat o ma3na el aayat o kelshay .. bas yebga ena farth, o mn yessaly, saga6 el takleef wa kaana allahu qafooran ra7eemaa
by the same token, il bent ely 3omorha 10, wela 12 .. aw 7ata 15 .. o labsa el e7jab wont necessarily 'understand why' y3ni ok setir bs lel7eenha ma wa3at 3al dinya ma shafat ma ekhtal6at ma ra7at ma jatt, bas khalas, she grew up with it .. taaaaaly etha b tefsakh el e7jab lena 7athrat'ha mo megtan3a feh o "7aakirha", fa 3end yaddy
however, if we're talking abt an 18 yr old girl "forced" into wearing el e7jab, then yes.. i see where ur going with this
o 6ab3an itha il bent wasnt forced, laken ehy lama ikbarrat ta7ajebat, khair webrekka shay akthar mn raa'e3
jiji
la madri, kela
By
Temetwir, at 8.4.06
it's kinda hard to read now that ur BG's black =(
By
Nouph, at 8.4.06
eL 7ejab far'6. Ma feha neqash. And I sound stupid for even saying that a girl should be convinced.
I was pointing out that from what I have seen so far, girls not wearing the "7jab" were decent (morales, attitude, clothes, ..etc.) than those who did.
Sure, that doesn't mean they're better.
Oo b3dain lamma tyeeb el 6ma6 Oo t7e6a 3ala el khobza ma3 el flafel, lazem ma3ahom khyar ya akhi !!!
By
MBH, at 8.4.06
Enough has been said, a lot of people already voiced my opinion and I don't want to sound repetitive.
But thanks Temetwir, you've once again raised an important issue :)
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Sedna, at 8.4.06
fof it isnt, refresh/reload the page
mbh
"I was pointing out that from what I have seen so far, girls not wearing the 7jab were decent .. [more so]than those who did"
disagree
"Sure, that doesn't mean they're better."
agreed
Sedna
la walla 7ilfay? ur not getting off that easy .. mashalla the ladies and gents have raised a lot of valid points and discussed a number of criteria .. y3ni its not limited
point being, we still dont know where u stand .. so, where do u stand? in ur own words
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Temetwir, at 8.4.06
Lol tha7aktny =P
L-7jaab far'6 - despite the fact that many people are in "denial". Yet it is one obligation of many...one step in a long journey.
I'm not one to judge but l-7jaab should mean that the girl/woman has taken intitative. It shouldn't be a claim for perfection or an excuse for the wearer to neglect her other duties. L-7jaab comes hand in hand with many responsibilities, that sadly, many women are not aware off or simply choose to ignore.
Of course, its presence or absence says a lot about a girl, but unless you actually know her reasons for wearing it or not, don't even begin to assume...
By
Sedna, at 8.4.06
Sedna
an obligation of many .. and taking initiative
very well put, and explicitly direct
"it shouldnt be a claim for perfection"
and if i might add, "nor is it to be percieved as such"
see, i knew u were going to say smthing smart
chairz
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Temetwir, at 8.4.06
Temetwir, "disagree" !!
You can't disagree! I said "from what I have seen" !!
You could have seen better samples, but you can't deny what I saw o_0;
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MBH, at 8.4.06
loool i realize that most guys who "ekalmoon" arent considering anything past the next 24 hours, bas i brought it up here la2n el ma7roos seems like he wants to settle down? i assumed they stop when they want to get serious?
el shabab el 3arabie w ma adraka mal shabab el 3arabie...
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Faith, at 8.4.06
This is a difficult issue to address. People have very personal and, often, unyielding opinions on this topic. But, I think you dealt with it in a very mature and very comprehensible way, so kudos to u on that :D
There is a book i read and posted about on my blog called "No God, but God" It talks about the origin and progression of Islam. It addresses the topic of Hijab as well. And pretty much tells u the story of where it came from.. he also cites his sources for these stories.
The story is that when Islam was starting out in Medina or what was then known as Yathrib. The prophets' (PBUH) house functioned as the Masjid and was the compound where all visiting tribes set up their tents when they were negotiating agreements with the Prophet (PBUH). This compound also housed the Prophets wives. Therefore, the wives were vulnerable because of the men coming in and out of the compound at all hours of the day and night. As a result, Allah sub7anaho wa ta3ala sent down the verse stating that when you enter the prophets house and/or speak to his wives, do so min waraa' al 7ijab.
Therefore, the verse only applied to wives of the prophet (PBUH), which is evident by the fact that the hijab was not enforced upon any other women in the tribe. it only applied to the prophets wives.
In later years, following the prophets (PBUH) death, the women in the region wanted to emulate the actions of the prophets wives because they were of such high morals and good character.
Following that, the Ullama or religious scholars began interpreting the verse so that it would apply to all women. When in fact, it specifically targeted the Prophets (PBUH) wives.
Here's something u can look up:
There was a saying in Yathrib that applied to the woman who became the prophets' wife. The saying was : "darabaat al 7ijab" or "The wearing of the hijab"
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The Krispy Dixie, at 9.4.06
mbh granted
faith ma athin its abt 3arabi wela brai6any wela ghairah .. it has to do with misunderstanding (or not understanding at all) the concept of marriage .. say, confusing it with so-called 'love'?
KD
nice story..
o dam ena 3ala6ol dashaina fi salfat el sources o mani 3arif aish, we can go in an eternal loop.. therefore, laish enthayye3 elwagt, khaleeny akhtessir el negaash o adish seeda bel mawthou3 mn na7yat el 3agil
6ayyib.. elsha3ar zeena wela la?
if not, wejhat nathar
walaw ena almost every single human being b yekhtelif ma3ach feha bel ijmaa3
however, if u say eh elsha3ar zeena, then 6ayyib.. wosalna khair .. mn lah tobda ilzeena?
ilma7arim wel azwaj وما ملكت أيمانكم.. if u disagree, then we have a problem lena we'll have to go back to sources and get a bit too technical
but for the sake of the initial argument, if u and i both agree ina el sha3ar "mn el ma7aasin", then i dont see why, bel3agel that is, we would argue 3ala ena farth el bent tega6eeh just like the rest of her body except for hands and face .. assuming that u would also agree 3ala ena the body mn el ma7aasin ..
yoba in modern lingo "showing off the curves", ekhliss
that is, of course, lena we would like to think that il islam wasnt just abt "doing stuff", but also abt maintaining dignity
some would say "ayshay, hatha ith6ehaad lel mar'a"
the way i see it, anything but would be "isteglaal el mar'a"
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Temetwir, at 9.4.06
السفور الي والنعم فيها لازم تتبرقع
المتحجبة الي رايحة جفي.. لازم تقط الحجاب حفاظاً على سمعة الحجاب و رأفةً بحال الشباب المقحطين
حافظوا على واجهة الديرة يا جماعة الربع
تعجبني مواضيعك بو حسين :)
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7asoon, at 9.4.06
Islam isn't just about "doing stuff", what do you mean by that?
and of course Islam would want its believers to maintain dignity, that's besides the point.
The point of my argument was to illustrate the fact that people, in general, (or the majority who would disagree with me) love to take Islam and copy/paste it from 7th century Arabia to twenty-first century earth. People have this archaic view that religions exist in a vacuum, completely cut off from the social and politic climate from which they sprang. This is a notion that defies logic.
Islam was born and developed within a context or an environment if u will, for us, as human beings, to have the audacity to lift it from that context and place it in our own, entirely foreign, time and place, is simply rediculous.
Even the most rigid Islamic scholar will admit that the verses of the Holy Quran came down to treat and remedy certain conflicts and situations. Why should the hijab be any different?
If you go back to the very basics of our religion, you will find that a big part of what Islam is today simply did not exist back then. Most, if not all, of today's Islamic teachings are complete fabrications, designed to suit the 'muftee's' own notions of right and wrong.
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The Krispy Dixie, at 9.4.06
7asoon
ya3jebni 7aya'ok 3ala hal magoola.. hatha ma yosama bel mokhtasar il mofeed 3ayal? hehe
KD
cant help but think that this isnt our subject since:
a) based on ur 2nd comment, u are agreeing on that the 7ijaab was farth on women, but:
b) it should not be a farth in this day and time (becoz... ?)
^ do correct me if im wrong (as well i think i am, but this is what it came off as)
u say:
"Islam was born and developed within a context or an environment if u will, for us, as human beings, to have the audacity to lift it from that context and place it in our own, entirely foreign, time and place, is simply rediculous."
bagolich shaghletain:
a) la ta7asbeen el maskhara ely sayra wel tasree7at el fathya bel jarayid from certain members of parliament and so-called islamists is what islam is abt .. ya3ni dont take that as a measure simply becoz ma ra7 telgainy arid 3alaich, bel3aks b telgainy awaafgich .. we have to draw the line ya3ni
b) since we're talking abt el e7jab, i cant help but conclude that u r (again) saying that il 7jaab is not (or should not) be a farth becoz that would be "lifting islam from what it was and placing it exactly in today's world"
eh wela la? ma wedy akamel gabel la a3arf belthab6 what ur trying to convery becoz i feel sha6aitty shway in ur 2nd comment
finally, as for "If you go back to the very basics of our religion, you will find that a big part of what Islam is today simply did not exist back then"
i repeat (a) above
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Temetwir, at 9.4.06
hijab is farth on women?
how did u get that from my second comment?
I wasn't contradicting my first comment with what I said, I was clarifying it.
I don't believe that hijab was farth on all women when the issue first came about. as I said in my first comment, I believe the Quranic verse came down to treat a very specific problem, which it did. I find it completely logical that the hijab could be farth on certain women (read: the prophet's (PBUH) wives) and not on all of them.
And I'm not talking about what the members of parliament say. what they say is too simplistic and frankly ineffectual. I'm talking about the religious scholars who throughout history have twisted the religion to suit their own needs.
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The Krispy Dixie, at 9.4.06
Krispy, which religous scholars twisted the words? I'm not accusign of lying, I'm just curious about the sources. Can your bring any other sources other than this book that back up your argument?
On a personal level, why do you disagree with the 7ijab?
Thank you.
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Anonymous, at 9.4.06
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
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A3sab, at 10.4.06
What matters is how a woman presents herself... with or without hijab is irrelevant
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A3sab, at 10.4.06
صبحك الله بالخير بو حسين
و لاحظ انه حتى انا بو حسين بعد
:)
بو حسين .. انا و انت و غيرنا كلنا
درسنا في بيئة مختلطة و توظفنا في بيئة
مختلطة و اللي يقيس الأخلاق بالحجاب انسان
بعده ما نضج و لا شاف الدنيا عدل
ياما شفنا بنات من غير حجاب لكن ما تقدر
تقول عنهم كلمة و العكس طبعا
بالمقابل شخصيا اؤمن ان الحجاب فرض و يفترض
تلبسه البنت عن اقتناع مثل ما احنا نصلي
و احنا مقتنعين ان الصلاة عمود الدين
و فيها راحة
مسألة الزواج .. لو عني اكيد باحرص ان
الانسانة اللي بارتبط فيها تكون متحجبة
بعد اقترانها فيني طبعا
يعني ممكن اخطب وحدة مو متحجبة لو كانت
مناسبة على شرط انها تلبس الحجاب
بعد الزواج
ادري بتقولون متناقض اشلون قناعة و اشلون
تفرضه عليها بس ترى في وايد بنات ينطرون
احد يقولهم و ودهم و بنفس الوقت
انا مو توم كروز عشان البنت تلبس حجاب
عشاني لوووول .. يهمني انها تلبسه و هي
مقتنعة مو عشاني .. يعني لو قدرت اقنعها
و هذا شيء خاص فيني انا و ما اعممه او افرضه
على احد
أنا ما احب اصنف الناس هذا زين و هذا
شين
يمكن قبل النضج كنا نتسرع بالحكم بس الحين لا
و اللي مو عاجبنا بيلقى غيرنا يعجبه
و يمكن احنا ما نعجبه اصلا
و عسى الله يهني سعيد بسعيده
يعني كل واحد ينام على الجنب اللي يريحه
من غير ما نحط من قدر احد
و السلام ختام
:)
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طائر بلا وطن, at 10.4.06
Anon> I welcome any and all arguments for and against what I've said. This is exactly what should be happening. People should not be afraid to question and contemplate these issues. That's what temetwir did with his story. It was a discussion on a very sensitive issue and any discussion is healthy.
as for ur question, the progression of Islam is full of Ullama or (Islamic scholars) who have interpreted Islam in their own unique way. The divergence and rapid islamization of the region practially demanded that this would happen. That's how all of these movements came out: Sufism, Shiasm, the four sunni schools of thought, the taliban movement.. all of these schools of thought came about because certain scholars united and said that their way was the only way.
You can find accurate, (mostly)unbiased histories of islamic progression in many books.. Books that I have found helpful include:
-Muhammad by Karen Armstrong
-Wahhabi Islam by Natana J Delong-bas
- Discovering Islam: Making Sense of Muslim History and Society by Ahmad Akbar
- Intellectual Origins of Islamic Resurgence in the Modern Arab World
by Ibrahim M. Abu-Rabi
- Overcoming Tradition and Modernity: The Search for Islamic Authenticity by Robert D. Lee
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The Krispy Dixie, at 10.4.06
KD
alrighty, and since u find it completely logical that it could be only a farth for the prophet's (pbuh) wives .. goleely, do u find it logical too that il sha3ar yo3tabar zeena o mn ma7aasin il bent? ma radaity 3alay mn awal mara o ilsara7a hatha oho me7war il7adeeth kent na6rich
ehni isme7eely a7shir neg6a mohema, yetrawaaly enha qaayba 3an thihn el ba3th (aw il kitheer): ena fi il islam 3endich el farth, o 3endich el 7okum
o yaraaaaaaaait lo nefarig bain el athnain
i dont want to go in the islamic scholars thing coz, frankly, myself being of the shee3a sect i find this irrelevant to my personal belief (althu i can sense where this is going and i would nod in agreement) .. aham shay 3endi al7een tegolenly "by logic" 3ala goltich ilsha3ar yo3tabar mn ma7asin o mafatin ilbent?
ps: check ur email
a3sab
yup om mejrin, that was the overall conclusion from every1 here (as far as i remember) .. the representation is tied with ilsana3, il 7ijaab is NOT
only question therefore would be where do u stand on it being a farth
طائر بلا وطن
هلا يالسمي
احسنت وأوافقك الراي ان اي واحد يقيس الاخلاق على الحجاب واحد ما شاف الدنيا ولا احتك بالناس
بالعكس انا شخصيا ماني شايف تناقض في انك تسأل البنت الي تبيها انها تتحجب..
والراي الاخير لها ان كانت تبي والا لا فهالشي يخصها هي واهلها
انا عن نفسي ابدا ماعندي مشكلة اتقدم حق وحدة مو متحجبة, لاني ابدا ما اربط السنع في هذا الشي
لكن بسبب ايماني بفرض الحجاب فأنا اكيد ابيها تتحجب لانها بتكون على ذمتي.. وافتكر ان هذا هو قصدك بالضبط وانا مثلك تماما
أحييك على كلمة "أنا ما احب اصنف الناس هذا زين و هذا
شين"
وللاسف هذا الدارج لو تلاحظ حتى في عالم المدونات فتلقى الشخص الفلاني يحكم على فلنتان بكذا وكذا ويكون قد صنفه على معيار واحد فقط
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Temetwir, at 10.4.06
I can not disagree with the hijab any more than I can disagree with a person who engages in friendly gambling or thinks its wrong to fast on 3ashoura. These are matters of faith, its not something I can presume to alter in another human being.
If history has taught us anything, it is that people will practice the form of religion which is most comfortable for them.
I, personally, choose to believe in the things that make sense, that do not defy my God-given logic. This, of course, excludes the 5 pillars of Islam, which I wouldn't even begin to question. But the other things, the things that have been debated and killed over for centuries, these things I choose to believe in providing that my brain does not reject it.
The idea of hijab, as presented in my first comment, is completely logical and reasonable given the prevailing environment. I believe that the verse was grossly misinterpreted by later scholars.
Again, that's just my view and if something came along tomorrow that made it perfectly reasonable and logical that the hijab would be farth, then my views would likely change.
Thank you temetwir, for bringing such an important topic to the table. As I said, these discussions are healthy ones.
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The Krispy Dixie, at 10.4.06
3indina il farth o 3indina il 7ukum. ur exactly right about that. As far as I know, there are only five pillars or forooth of Islam, which we are all familiar with. The a7kam are things like drinking and gambling and usury and all those other things. So why is everyone insisting that the hijab is a farth when in reality it (was) a 7ukum on certain people (the prophets wives.
I don't see where the whole zeena issue comes in. A woman's face is considered zeena. Does that mean that the niqab is a farth now?
Women were and are told to dress modestly (meaning the covering of intimate areas).. there is no mention or defining of hair as an (intimate area)...
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The Krispy Dixie, at 10.4.06
wether its farth or not i have to say i'm nuetral on that.
i'm not veiled now and i dont think i'm capable of taking that step. but you never know in a few years time
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A3sab, at 10.4.06
KD
1) tesara3tay.. il farth ho ely nass wel 7ejab farth .. o tattim el 7uja emma bel gawwl, aw bel fe3il, aw bel tagreer ..
el a7kaam wel tafseel ehya khath3a le awtha3 w mo36ayaat, o ma yekoon "meny wel 6ereej" 3ala kaif el islamic scholars y3ni methel ma u would like to draw ..
2) u should see where the whole zeena issue comes in .. lena this IS the issue .. el mas'ala mo bs etga6y el "raas" .. abadan, el mas'ala enha "ta7jib" ilsha3ar 3an el anthaar
o mn kalamich ur saying yes, elsha3ar zeena .. so answer me this, bel islam, men lah toth'har il zeena ya KD?
abadan mani makhthich eb scholars walahom ya7zanon.. god-driven logic to god-driven logic :p
3) 3ala ay asas 7akamtay ena wayh el bent zeena? etha gasdich el temekyij wel "tabaruj", then yes, tessi7 for a certain "crowd" only
4) mani fahem sheno "intimate area" .. laken il ma3rof (o mo kalami wala kalam el muslim scholars 3ala goltech hatha motafag 3laih) ena il mar'a jasadha 3awra ma3ada el kafain wel wayh (so no, el neqab mo farth).. and as i say, some say ayshay hatha ith6ehaad, and i say bel3aks, hatha takreem o ta3theem 7ag el bent mn rab il3alimeen ely ho ely khalag ilbashar o ya3lam feehom.. o a3teged KELNA nefham ba3athna ma yabeelha idlaala hal mas'ala
5) lazim, lazim, LAZIM itfargeen bain ma howa motfag 3laih wa ma howa wath3 ishkaal .. fa ely teshofeen feh ishkaal (bel math`hab nafsah mo etyebeenli o itrab6een bain math`hebain) fa lich el7ag enich teqouseen feh .. amma el motafag 3laih? o betkhalfeena b 7ejat ena "la wala, islamic scholars have twisted stuff to suit their needs" .. esme7ely thats a weak argument lena mako shay yamshi meny wel6ereej .. kelshay bel egna3 wel daleel
ALLAHUMA etha 3endich el burhaan ely yekhaalif egna3 o daleel il6araf ilthany, كان بها
ama if u dont, 3ayal 3ala ay asaas tegoum el monathara?
loving this KD
om mejrin
most diplomatic response yet
By
Temetwir, at 10.4.06
1) I never said that these a7kam came "minny o 6ireej". On the contrary, history is full of Islamic "scholars" who have given out "fatawi" to suit their own idea of right and wrong i.e. to suit very specific needs. ab9a6 mithal is the Taliban movement or, more simplistically, the scholars who say that insurance is gambling and interest is 7aram.
2) "el mas'ala mo bs etga6y el "raas" .. abadan, el mas'ala enha "ta7jib" ilsha3ar 3an el anthaar"
What's the difference between it'3a6y i raas and ta7jib i sha3ar. I hope we're not talking about the girls who go around with the scarf halfway down their hair and call it hijab. If so, then its not worth commenting on, if not then please clarify.
3) "temikyij o teberij"? I'm pretty sure makeup wasn't prevalent in Mohammad's (PBUH) time.
4) If u go back to the origin of this mas'ala you'll find that the whole "ma 3ada il kafain wil wajh" issue was not specified. In Sourat Al-Nour: verse 31, it tells "women to be modest and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent and to draw their veils over their bosoms, when in the company of strange men"... This is not my translation, it is a certified translation by Marmaduke Pickthall. If you apply any definition u want to the term zeena, then ur argument would stand. oo il 7amdilla rabna im3athim oo imkarim il mar'a, therefore there's really no need for "scholars" to go around doing it.
5) How did the "mutafaq 3alaih" come about? It came from religious scholars putting out fatawi and enough people followed along with it that it became mutafaq 3alaih. That, in and of itself, does not make it right. 500 years ago, everyone in the world was absolutely convinced that the earth was flat.. hatha kaan "mutafaq 3alaih", those people turned out to be wrong.
Religion, in the end, is man-made, man-progressed and ultimately man-destroyed. Faith, on the other hand, is something entirely uncomplicated by mathahib, religious practices and fatawi.
By
The Krispy Dixie, at 10.4.06
1) laih yomech el denya full of "islamic scholars" ely mathalan t7arim mosharakat el mar'a wela ely et7arrim ekhtelaa6 beljam3a o madry sheno..
mo kelshay yengaal enty takhtheena as "khalas, dam hatha ely galoh.. akeed elbajy nafs elshay" .. lazim teraj3een teshofeen oho 3ala ay asaas gal hal kalam? rewaaya? ok, shenhy el rewaya? sanad-ha yo3tbar sa7ee7? ok, 3ala ay asaas? mno ely rewaaha? 6ayyib, rewaha flaan, nero7 neshof flaan hatha sheno riwwa b3d? weta7agegain .. wela shlon b tosleen 7ag elsa7 ely yagne3ich?
betgoleenly "ya salam, ana metfargha?"
well, yes and no.. mo metfargha? 3ayal lata7kimeen meny wel 6ereej.
o ham dam mo metfargha, lazim teshofeen someone that u trust/know that is unbiased o "zaahid beldenya" la hammeta la masali7 seyaseya wala denyaweya .. betgolenli "wain my god-driven logic" .. bagolich kaho, when u chose fulaan
y3ni tara kelman ya3rif o kelman waa3y ena islamich history endasat feeh shaghlaat o tanaghuthaat .. laken does this undermine ssa7at il islam? akeed la
y3ni enty lazim testaw3ebain ya KD ena what u know has reached u thru a channel that has shown u the way to use that "god-driven logic"
2) no, im not talking abt the grls having their scarves halfway down their heads..
im talking abt percieving el 7ejaab as something that is just over ur head, that has no significance and understanding ena what its use is: which is ilbent ta7jib zainha wetkhaleeh 7ag elnaas ely kafo and have the right to be exposed to that "zain" .. lena el bnaya at the end of the day isnt just something men look at and admire for her hair or curves or whatever and then mistake this for "knowledge and independence"
3) im pretty sure of otherwise
4) shofeely ma3alaich amer where in the quran (translated wela la, kaifech) that it says how many rik3aat u pray in el fajir, how many in el thuhr and how many in elmaqarb ..
wain el seera?
wain el tafsseel?
betgoleenli islamic scholars have tampered with that?
khosh, 3ayal on what basis ru founding ur prayer ena 2 for fajir, 4 rik3at for il 3ishaa?
it has reached u in the exact same way as the e7jaab is a farth ..
im not talking to u personally here KD, laken el islam ya ba3ad 3omri isnt abt taking what ur okay with and "accept with ur logic" and anything u disagree with u can disregard
again, shlon sallaitay 4 rek3at el thuhur o laish ma geltay ena this is twisting from scholars?
akhalssich KD? ur gonna say el seera, o ana kel ely 3alay eny agolich "6ayyeb, elseera nafs`ha hathy ifrathat el 7ejaab" ..
may i also reiterate:
takoon el 7ujja bel islam bel gawl, aw il fe3il, aw el tagreer
5) 6ayyib, how did it so happen that u find kelman meteffig 3ala il salat 4 rek3aat lel thuhr?
betgoleenli "shma3na mo motafag 3alaih how they stand in prayer" .. bagolich hatha tafseel, o mo bas farg bain el mathahib, fa telgain el farg mathalan bain el sinna ba3athhom el ba3ath for example, some cross their hands (which btw has its historical reasons) and some dont (bel math'hab el sinny that is, yekhtelif mn ayy il arba3 a'ema)
ps: sorry KD im not sure of which 'imaam' (3end ikhwany il sinna) has the crossing of hands and which doesnt, bs etha tabeen ill be more than happy to ask for u :)
also, lo itla7theen, fi ikhtelaf bel tafseel ena some consider the covering should be up to the chin, and some say la, bs elsha3ar mn foog (this is something i know for a fact to be true bain el she3a wel sina, BUT i have reason to THINK - and not know for a fact - inah it is also a subtle diff between el 4 a'ema 3end el sinna)
ru gonna say ena khalas, el e7jab akeed mo farth 3al bent?
now, ur counter example of "motafag 3alaih" that the earth was thought to be flat is completely irrelevant,, but in a way, completely is
shlon etafgaw ena it isnt flat? mo bel ithbaat wel daleel?
khalas, why should islam be any different? il ithbat wel daleel telgaina fil siyyar wel tafseer .. betrideen wetgoleenly "well, thats exactly what im saying.. scholars have twisted this and that", and then ill just have to rephrase everything i said in 1-5 :p
"Religion, in the end, is man-made, man-progressed and ultimately man-destroyed."
to say religion is man-made is to undermine the role of the prophet pbuh .. i KNOW it wasnt ur intent, im just saying ena towaakhthain 3ala hal kelma by logic :)
KD for the 2nd time i urge u to check ur gmail account (one u have on ur profile)
By
Temetwir, at 10.4.06
did u post ur comment twice so i would read it twice? :P I've read each of ur comments multiple times before answering.
It seems to me that you might like to have this discussion by yourself since ur so keen on asking me something and then answering the way u think i would answer.
I never said that all religious scholars had their heads on backwards or suited their own pruposes. I'm saying most, if not then the loudest, of them do that. There are plenty of respectable Islamic scholars who are calling for the rationalization of the religion without sacrificing its core beliefs. I know of many of them, though I can't recall their names at the moment, I would offer to look them up, but I doubt that u will need such verification.
3ala salfat i zeena, I think I've made myself perfectly clear on that point.
Of course, there isn't any soura that states how many ruk3a's we pray or how often. These things were taught by the prophet, since teaching by example was the prophets' preferred means. ma ikhtilafna ib ha shay. oo ana miqtan3a 100% inna everything the prophet did and said and taught was right. I do not, however, believe inna the prophet farath il hijab on all the women in his community. If he didn't do it, why should we?
what you said in the end about needing to find reasons and ithbatat for things? I completely agree with u on that.
I will check my email when i get home :)
By
The Krispy Dixie, at 10.4.06
la i posted twice lena the 2nd time round i added "ru gonna say ena khalas, el e7jab akeed mo farth 3al bent?" after the details i offered .. u mustve read it before i deleted the 1st one :)
-
okay, wosalna khair .. gelty ena "ana miqtan3a 100% inna everything the prophet did and said and taught was right"
ya3ni ITHA yebtlich shay yugirr ena el rasool - salla allah 3laih o aleh - farath el 7ejab.. ur going to do what exactly?
a) tet7ajebain? (rhetorical q)
b) say its a farth and settle for that?
c) dismiss it as something "some scholars" twisted?
d) otherwise?
i think this is the core of the issue, hypothetically answering that question will put everything else to rest
By
Temetwir, at 10.4.06
tried to read thru the 500 comments, bs te3abt. so here's my take, tho i'm sure it's repeated.
yes, 7ejab wajb. yes, not every female who wears it wears it properly nor holds the respect that goes along with it. yes, perhaps a person who prays 5 times a day may not be 'perfect', but i'd take those odds versus one who doesn't pray at all.
wil Salam 3laikom!
By
MSB, at 10.4.06
MSB
things got really interesting with krispy dixie, imho she has contributed a lot to the discussion i suggest u read what she had to say
also, i find it interesting that no one has come up with this verse mn il quran elkareem .. ilsara7a i wanted to see what KD had to say to the end, but i dont think this can "wait" any longer
besmelah elra7man elra7eem
يَا أَيّهَا النَّبِيّ قُلْ لِأَزْوَاجِك وَبَنَاتك وَنِسَاء الْمُؤْمِنِينَ يُدْنِينَ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِنْ جَلَابِيبهنَّ ذَلِكَ أَدْنَى أَنْ يُعْرَفْنَ فَلَا يُؤْذَيْنَ
o 7ag ely thagafta engelaizeya 3eshtaw, tefathal:
" O Prophet! tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
fa now what?
fi lafth bel quraan الا ما ظهر منها in, besmelah elra7man elra7eem:
وقل للمؤمنات يغضضن من أبصارهن ويحفظن فروجهن ولا يبدين زينتهن إلا ما ظهر منها وليضربن بخمرهن على جيوبهن ولا يبدين زينتهن إلا لبعولتهن أو آبائهن أو آباء بعولتهن أو أبنائهن أو أبناء بعولتهن أو إخوانهن أو بني إخوانهن أو بني أخواتهن أو نسائهن أو ما ملكت أيمانهن أو التابعين غير أولي الإربة من الرجال أو الطفل الذين لم يظهروا على عورات النساء ولا يضربن بأرجلهن ليعلم ما يخفين من زينتهن وتوبوا إلى الله جميعا أيها المؤمنون لعلكم تفلحون
o ely ya3neena mn hal aaya el kareema in this discussion is the following part:
ولا يبدين زينتهن إلا ما ظهر منها وليضربن بخمرهن على جيوبهن
fa il itefag bel logha "ma thaharra menha" ohwa el wajh wel kaffayn (what i have mentioned in a prior comment)
and the rest of il aya elkareema talks abt the covering of the .. lets say .. mafaatin iljasad
anyway, im really trying to restrict this to il quraan ilkareem 3alashan ma nedish fi matahaat il a7adeeth wel sanad (this is just to be extremely objective, but i personally do not condone this)
"tantata taa tan tan" ;)
fa 3ad al7een shlon? thabatta sharr3an wela lesa? hehe
By
Temetwir, at 10.4.06
Tem, I hope you don't mind me being lazy by using the (non) niqab argument for a quick notice of a hijab argument :P
When women pray, they are required to cover their bodies SAVE for their hands and faces.
When women perform their pilgrimage, they are required to cover their bodies SAVE for their hands and faces.
I have yet to see someone pray without hijab.
By
Anonymous, at 10.4.06
sapphire
and that .. is why i love you
By
Temetwir, at 10.4.06
You seem awfully proud of yourself. what with the 'tra-tra-tan' and condescending tone.
With regard to your first question:
I guess I should arbitrarily dismiss (a) since it was rhetorical. I'll go with (d), You've provided enough evidence to make ur point perfectly clear, as have i. Its something to ponder and explore further.
However, as per your provided verses, I see no mention of specifics. I see a call for modesty.. I don't see a call for the covering of ones hair. As i said in a previous comment, you are going along with scholars who have defined the word "zeena" as being hair. When, in fact, this isn't mentioned.
I'm sure that you and I can agree that modesty i.e. not drawing attention to one's self is a much higher virtue than covering one's hair. Extreme example:
A mit7ajba girl in an 3abaya is walking down the street. She hears music and suddenly starts shakin' what her mama gave her.. so to speak. I'm sure no one would agree that those are the actions of a modest, muslim woman.
On the other hand, you have a woman who does not cover her hair, wears short sleeves and yet does not go around dancing in the street...
Which is more virtuous? Its a no-brainer.
What I'm trying to illustrate is that there is no corellation between a woman being modest and wearing a hijab.
The verses of the Quran came down in the Prophets' time, to suit the problems that he was facing in Madina. this verse came down and was distributed. Check the history books. The women of Mohammad (PBUH)'s time were not veiled. The hijab was not made a farth (3ala goltik) until generations after the prophet's death. Why do you think that is? If the prophet (PBUH) didn't make it mandatory then, why should it be now?
I think we've both made ourselves perfectly clear on our views and, frankly at this point, we're just starting to go around and around in circles.
By
The Krispy Dixie, at 10.4.06
1) i am proud of myself thank u very much, but it was really addressed to MSB .. regardless, moving on
2) zeena doesnt just go with "hair" .. it goes with tafseel el jasad .. im not sure where u got that i said zeena = hair and nothing but.. and i really find it amusing ena u would dismiss hair as being shay "7elo" o "zeena" yalfit o yaqry (keyword) o bedon ay da3y .. that said, ma yasgi6 el takleef if u disagree (mo kalami).. fa 3ala hawach
3) as for specifics, khalas.. yeebely the verse that specifies the number of rik3aat and ill hand u the argument of the specific of hair/ears/head.. until then, plz find another method to get around the "labelling"
4) ur "god-driven logic" would entail that "yodneena 3alayhin" would include the head, including hair ..
and im really, literally, talking abt logic .. the science .. not common sense..
which really isnt to say that common sense wouldnt include the above
anyhoo, hint: u could say "yodneena 3alayhin mn jalaleebahin" as in 'cover their legs and arms' .. so, if u would like to go that route, ham basee6a im willing to go down that route with u
5) again, lama tegoleen definition, thats logic.. a tautology of sorts, yet not quite..
however when u say "explained" or "interpretted", then ur talking abt truth conditions, again, in god's-driven logic (literally, ga3id a7aajijich eb kalamich KD ma yebt shay mn 3endy)..
regardless, i must reiterate ena i never said zeena equals sha3ar o khalas full stop .. etha enty b tagni3eeny ena el sha3ar ma yalfit walaho mn ma7aasin il banat, fa okay, wejhat natharr..ill give u that o 3alaich b alf 3afya.. bs ham ya 7abatha lo teshoufeenly sirfa weya "yodneena 3alayin mn jalaleebahen"
6) yes, i agree that modesty is a virtue.
no, i dont agree that its more of a virtue if the hair is not covered
and yes, i dont see "being decent" is dependent on il 7ejaab .. i have made this clear in prior comments
7) ur extreme example is fine and i do agree with u .. laken still, ma yasgi6 el takleef
by the same token, as an "extreme example" .. a guy does the same thing as ur girl-in-ur-example, so now what? ma yessaly? yasgi6 takleef el salat?
especially when we have established (unless u can prove otherwise KD) that the number of rik3aat of each prayer is not "specified" in the Quraan :)
8) im not sure if ur trying to convey that a woman's arm isnt 3awra .. wela chan ish raad il bnaya el met7ajba enha tachfis echmomha?
3alashan ma athay3ich ma3ay al7een, ill quote and reply
quote:
"What I'm trying to illustrate is that there is no corellation between a woman being modest and wearing a hijab."
^ very, very, VERY true .. and i can almost be certain (i can check and read thru the comments again) that EVERY SINGLE ONE HERE has said that .. la nensa, tara feehom ahalna o fehom coworkers o fehom asaatethatna bel jam3a o fehom dekatratna bel mestashfayat .. so yes, granted and i am willing to debate anyone who says otherwise ..
however, i was under the impression that we were discussing whether or not el 7ejab farrth .. so thats another subject altogether
quote:
"The verses of the Quran came down in the Prophets' time, to suit the problems that he was facing in Madina."
i disagree.. yes, fe shay esma asbaab el tanzeel etc and el ayaat takalemat 3an certain events, laken kelha 3ibbar hathy, u dont disregard them in our day and time, wela wain kelmat el quran le kol zaman w makaan? bs 7achi astaghferlla? .. by the same token, y3ni shlon, qissas el anbeyaa' bel quran tasleya and "fun storytelling" so they can put their kids "at the time to sleep" .. wal 3eyath belaah y3ni
quote
"Check the history books."
i thought we werent getting to that becoz "islamic scholars have twisted .. " so on and so forth?
wela il shibeeba el kotob in english based their stories on what exactly? sourcing is a prob, innit? :)
quote:
"The hijab was not made a farth (3ala goltik) until generations after the prophet's death."
specified in the quran, is it?
ur backing this up with what y3ni itha not the quran .. o bs kotob garaiteeha, ma3a el 3elm eny refraining from mentioning "events" in 'history books'
quote:
"Why do you think that is? If the prophet (PBUH) didn't make it mandatory then, why should it be now?"
i dont think that in the 1st place +
this is only ur opinion, based on what u have read in some book(s).. enty ma 3a6aiteeny forsa, o mn kalamich estantajt aslan, ena ay shay mn "el kotob el tareekheya" ely bayeeblich eyah betgoleenli ena this or that was twisted by this scholar or that .. hence, the quotation of the verses wel egte9aar 3alaiha in this discussion
sebag eny thekartlich marretain etha mani qal6aan the following:
el 7ujja mn el naby (wel ma3som 3nd elshe3a) emma bel gawwl, fe3il, aw tagreerr <-- 3rd time i say this, fahmat'ha wela need i explain?
its very very important here
quote:
"I think we've both made ourselves perfectly clear on our views and, frankly at this point, we're just starting to go around and around in circles."
im sorry KD, as much as i do respect what u have said and hold u personally as someone i like debating .. i dont see myself going in circles abadan .. not to brag but i have been "linear" in that i have limited my "sources" to verses of the quran + offering linguistic (read: linguistic) definitions (and not interpretations) of what has been mentioned in those verses ..
if u would be accepting of the "seera" and "a7adeeth" and "a7daath" 3an il rasol PBUH, i will be more than happy to offer some of them (althu i know the 'stories', i will have to look up the 7adeeth bel 7arrf - probably gotta contact a friend as he's got access to the books - laken mn 3youny el thentain ma 6alabty shay if thats what its gonna take)
note: lel mara il alf, if for any reason u have felt that anyone here has tied il "sana3" (From the original short story) with "wearing el e7jaab", then rest assured, fahamty qala6 and i REALLY dont see anyone ever saying that given that he has lived in kuwait (again, where the short story is supposed to take place)
By
Temetwir, at 10.4.06
sapphire said what i've repeated to others time and time again. the minute ppl can pray without putting 7ejab on and go to Makkah without wearing one, then i'll buy the 'it's not wajb/farth' comment.
And if some ppl want to say 'we have no choice cuz the laws there (Makkah)don't give us an option', fine. Then do u pray in ur room without covering ur hair?
Yes, el sha3ar zeena and it's obvious in how it adds to a woman's beauty. Yes, tight clothes and clown colored faces are zeena.. and all of these are against what Islam has taught us.
At the end of the day, if u READ el Quran El Kareem, and READ el seerah el Nabaweyah, then it doesn't really require any tafseer.
O ath3af el Eman, for those who don't buy this 7ejab concept, what r u gonna lose? if there's a 20% chance that it's farth, then is covering ur hair THAT big of a deal, that ur willing to risk even 20% in ending up in el ma39eyah?
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MSB, at 10.4.06
You know what I find interesting? Is the fact that nobody read my initial comment and recognized how, at the very least, plausible it is. I mean I realize inna the idea of hijab as farth is firmly embedded in our societies, but really... la ha daraja, you can't even acknowledge it as a possibility?
Its like everyone came into this post completely biased and already having had their opinions carved in stone.
My opinions are more pliable than that. As I've said, you've provided ample evidence, all of which, il 7amdilla and despite your reluctance to believe it, I have understood. All I was trying to do was open up the forum to the possibility that there could be another explanation, an alternative story.
I have not rejected your opinions... I haven't made up my mind that you are right and I am wrong or vice versa. I am perfectly fine with the idea that we could both be wrong! :P
I do appreciate the discussion and value, as well as, respect all of your opinions.
Thank you :)
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The Krispy Dixie, at 11.4.06
msb
again, this can very well be taken as evidence if one did not wish to resort to the quran (el3eyath belah y3ni, just saying as an example)
KD
everyone is entitled to an opinion, laken at some point, and in certain cases, it just can NOT be about "athnainhom sa7, bs ayahoma assa7" bel kwaity
y3ni at a given point, lazim one POV comes off as the correct one
elmohem, chayakty emailich wela la, in either case add me fi cham shaghla ma tengaal on a comment section in a blog
boursachi@hotmail.com
By
Temetwir, at 11.4.06
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